Windows Pro Tools Feild Recorder Guide Track
Pro Tools Field Recorder Workflow
Hi, all!
I've reached out to Avid support about this, but haven't heard back in about 3 weeks... to be fair, they requested a sample session, AAF, etc., which entails a lot of work on their end, so I'll give them the time they need.
In the meantime, my question is: has anybody out there been successful in importing an AAF from Premiere Pro into Pro Tools, using the Field Recorder Workflow (which auto-matches field audio to AAF clips), and getting actual field audio aligning with the AAF?
Here's my pipeline:
Video is shot in R3d, transcoded at the cameras during acquisition to ProRes422, edited in Premiere Pro. I receive an AAF with embedded media, exported from Premiere Pro. I receive field audio recorded on Cantar X3, usually 4-8 channels, but sometimes up to 13.
All metadata is present in the field audio files (Scene, Take, Channel Name, etc.). However the clips in the imported AAF have little or no metadata displaying in Pro Tools. For example, clip "A020_C03_0914K6_001" should correlate to Scene 606 Take 3, but in the timeline it won't display the take number, channel name, etc... or sometimes anything at all.
My usual process is to compile a single guide track from the AAF clips, give it my matching criteria (usually very minimal, so it won't exclude anything... I usually just select "shoot date" because in the current version of Pro Tools, the process fails with an error if you search by timecode only), give it the folder to search in, and Expand Channels to New Tracks by Match Criteria... and when it finishes the matching process, the expanded clips (which are supposed to be the actual field audio clips) are a mixed bag, containing nothing useful. Some clips are simply copies of the associated AAF clip. Some look right, but are missing metadata (so they definitely aren't the field audio clips, which all have full metadata). In my current project, none of them are the actual field audio clips.
So I resort to manually looking up scene-take info from an index my editors provide me as a backup, and hand-syncing the field audio clips. Which I don't mind doing, but it takes a lot more time than this process would if it worked.
We have some downtime, so we're currently testing to find exactly where the process breaks down (it's looking like something in Premiere is corrupting the metadata), and hope to have some answers soon.
In the meantime, my question is: has anybody out there been successful in importing an AAF from Premiere Pro into Pro Tools, and getting actual field audio aligning with the AAF?
Thanks in advance for any light you can shed!
-Mark
Premiere to Protools is a known quagmire.
Not one reliable solution.
Two that have worked:
- open Premiere session in Audition, and export from there
- translate via AAtranslator (PC).
Thanks, Florian. I'll see if we can try the Audition solution!
Lives for gear
Do I understand correctly, they are editing only with camera audio? Or are they syncing a Cantar mix?
I have had projects work out, depending on the Premiere version, using Broadcast wav in aaf (not aiff!), and best not using merged clips as far as I remember.
Do the audio files from the aaf show any useful metadata in workspace? Apart from TC?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl ➡️
Do I understand correctly, they are editing only with camera audio? Or are they syncing a Cantar mix?
I have had projects work out, depending on the Premiere version, using Broadcast wav in aaf (not aiff!), and best not using merged clips as far as I remember.
Do the audio files from the aaf show any useful metadata in workspace? Apart from TC?
Andrew, thanks for the response. Yes, generally their edits contain 2-channel camera audio, coming from the live Cantar mixdown at the shoot (the same feed that goes to the client tent). In some cases they manually fly in some actual Cantar field audio themselves, but even that gets corrupted on its way to me.
They do send me only broadcast WAV in the AAFs, and they know not to send me merged clips (or if they do, they have to give me source info so I can sync it manually).
Some audio clips in the AAF do display full metadata in workspace (TC, scene, take, channel name), though when viewed on the timeline, usually they're missing "channel name". But even when all the metadata is displaying in workspace, the matching process ("expand to new tracks") still doesn't work. The usual outcome is that I get several copies of the camera audio clips, with no field audio brought in.
I've gone so far as to bring all the field audio from a particular day of shooting into the "Audio Files" subfolder instead of having PT grab them from the external drive they live on. It didn't help.
I keep hoping there's something obvious I'm doing wrong, and that I'll finally see it and life will be good! I've gone over the process so many times, I may be blind to something... if you have any insight, please share! And thanks.
Lives for gear
Well, if they have CAMERA clips synced, what metadata would PT look for? Only TC? The camery clip won't have any info, unless the editor ingested it while importing/syncing. That would probably require "EdiLoad" to get it working.
Did they have Timecode sync between Cantar and Camera?
If so, going "TC only" on matching would sync up all clips with matching TC, so even wrong shoot days.
I just did this for a colleague with Davince Resolve edits using only camera clips - TC was synced though.
Doubleclick on a camera audio file with the "grabber" and see what the original timestamp is. If it is sth other than 00:00:00:00 then you might be lucky if it matches the Canatar TC. But as I wrote above, it would sync ALL the stuff.
How many days were they shooting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl ➡️
Well, if they have CAMERA clips synced, what metadata would PT look for? Only TC? The camery clip won't have any info, unless the editor ingested it while importing/syncing. That would probably require "EdiLoad" to get it working.
Did they have Timecode sync between Cantar and Camera?
If so, going "TC only" on matching would sync up all clips with matching TC, so even wrong shoot days.
I just did this for a colleague with Davince Resolve edits using only camera clips - TC was synced though.
Doubleclick on a camera audio file with the "grabber" and see what the original timestamp is. If it is sth other than 00:00:00:00 then you might be lucky if it matches the Canatar TC. But as I wrote above, it would sync ALL the stuff.
How many days were they shooting?
Andrew-
The ProRes422 camera clips I receive (transcoded from R3D at the camera during capture) normally do have TC and scene-take metadata embedded, and it used to be mostly complete and reliable in the AAFs. One of my editors confirmed that clips on his timeline do carry the appropriate shoot TC (which is borne out when looking at the rendered video's source TC burn-in), and I can see even in my imported AAF, some of them have correct scene and/or take metadata.
The cameras and Cantar are all slaved to the same TC at the shoot. It's 5 shoot days, so searching by "TC only" can get messy... the other issue is that in PT 2020.11, doing so returns an error on my system (which I've submitted to Avid).
I can revert to my previous version of PT if I need to just for that, but it still fails to pull in the appropriate field audio. The camera clips I'm currently dealing with do have embedded "original timestamp" TC, but it's unrelated to both the Cantar's source TC and the Premiere sequence's TC. This may be the source of some of the trouble! I have a message out to my editors to determine what may be causing this... it certainly makes it look like a Premiere export issue, since he says the clips in his timeline have correct timecode.
If nothing else, I'm hoping to try the Premiere -> Audition -> AAF route tomorrow.
Thanks for your perspective, Andrew. It's greatly appreciated.
-Mark
It works for me but they need to cut with sync sound not camera clips. I'm surprised the camera clips come over with any metadata. They do not originate as BWF files.
Lives for gear
Thanks for clarifying... that does sound messy...
Where does the scene info come from in the camera clips? Added by the editor?
You could also fry OMF and see if that helps. Saved me on one buggy Premiere version I had once.
Good luck!!
If I recall correctly, Premiere handles audio as follows:
If the original audio is 48kHz AND 32-bit float, Premiere will just link to original and can pass on embedded metadata in aafs.
If the bit depth is 16/24, Premiere will automatically convert it to 32-bit float on import and store the converted file(s) in a .caf container file. This allows the editor to increase clip gain in Premiere without risk of (additional) clipping.
While this may work ok if you're staying in the Adobe ecosystem, it is seriously detrimental to any workflow relying on non-Adobe apps:
AAFs reference the converted clip (by address within the above mentioned .caf file) which is why audio files from Premiere are named a0098bc-fj48200z-i8362an.wav and such. It doesn't embed the original metadata, so relinking to originals is near impossible without workarounds, and as a cherry on the cake, whatever clip gain the editor has applied to the clips is rendered into the clips on export, so perfectly acceptable audio may all of a sudden distort heavily when exported in a 24-bit AAF.
Lives for gear
Interesting on the CAF containers.
As for clip gain - I receive AAFs without rendered clip gain, it is transferred over as real "virtual" clip gain - not rendered in the audio files.
Or are you talking about "rendered" gain effects, not just the clip level handle?
It depends on which volume/gain parameter the editor is adjusting. In Premiere there are (at least) 3 different parameters. Can't remember the exact parlance used now (hopefully someone else can chime in) but there is one clip gain that only works on full clips, one clip gain (track gain?) that can be automated/keyframed, and one volume. One of the gains transfers as clip gain into Pro Tools whereas the other is rendered to the clip(s).
Lives for gear
Premier doesn't retain metadata in the pass through to PT. Furthermore, it's rare that a DP enters in metadata like a location mixer does.
This is a situation where I would get audio EDL's from the picture editor, get a copy of the production rolls and use EdiLoad to construct the session.
Not sure if that is available to you, but that normal course works pretty well for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl ➡️
Thanks for clarifying... that does sound messy...
Where does the scene info come from in the camera clips? Added by the editor?
You could also fry OMF and see if that helps. Saved me on one buggy Premiere version I had once.
Good luck!!
@ Andrew Mottl , I'm not sure how the scene info makes it into the clips, but to help solve the problem, I gave our editors a link to this thread. I'll post back when I know.
We've tried OMF and it fails too. Haven't tried it recently, though... might be worth a try.
Last edited by mjpatey; 11th December 2020 at 04:52 PM.. Reason: tagging fix
Quote:
Originally Posted by inf0l ➡️
If I recall correctly, Premiere handles audio as follows:
If the original audio is 48kHz AND 32-bit float, Premiere will just link to original and can pass on embedded metadata in aafs.
If the bit depth is 16/24, Premiere will automatically convert it to 32-bit float on import and store the converted file(s) in a .caf container file. This allows the editor to increase clip gain in Premiere without risk of (additional) clipping.
While this may work ok if you're staying in the Adobe ecosystem, it is seriously detrimental to any workflow relying on non-Adobe apps:
AAFs reference the converted clip (by address within the above mentioned .caf file) which is why audio files from Premiere are named a0098bc-fj48200z-i8362an.wav and such. It doesn't embed the original metadata, so relinking to originals is near impossible without workarounds, and as a cherry on the cake, whatever clip gain the editor has applied to the clips is rendered into the clips on export, so perfectly acceptable audio may all of a sudden distort heavily when exported in a 24-bit AAF.
@ inf0l , this is extremely helpful information, thank you! I believe the camera audio originates at 48kHz 24 bit (this is definitely true of the field audio).
So if we're talking about camera clips that include TC and scene-take metadata, if they can be converted to 48kHz 32-bit PRIOR to importing into Premiere, we may stand a chance of preserving the metadata in the AAF export?
Lives for gear
Do you happen to have a screenshot or text info of what "scene-take" info is in the camera metadata? That one might be sth entered by the editor by hand in Premiere, but not 100% the same as the cantar info. I would assume that is why it isn't linking up in PT.
Also, I am not 100% sure about this CAF thing being the only culprit, as I have had metadata that made it over to PT before, with standard 24bit audio. But as said, it is a trial and error thing with all these different versions of Premiere.
Minister has a good point with the audio EDLs, BUT it sounds like they edited only with the camera clips. So not having synced up the audio files, not having entered exact metadata (I assume) in the video clips to match the Cantar files, I guess your only bet would be: by timecode, or have Premiere/PluralEyes somehow sync up via waveform (probably still a mess).
Or dive into Ediload with some manual metadata massaging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister ➡️
Premier doesn't retain metadata in the pass through to PT. Furthermore, it's rare that a DP enters in metadata like a location mixer does.
This is a situation where I would get audio EDL's from the picture editor, get a copy of the production rolls and use EdiLoad to construct the session.
Not sure if that is available to you, but that normal course works pretty well for us.
@ minister ,
I'll wait to hear from our editors (who also are present at the shoots), as they may be the ones entering that metadata... at the moment I can only say that the camera clips in the AAFs I receive usually contain scene, take and TC metadata (though it's been missing lately).
I originally thought there was metadata communication between the field recorder and the cameras, but that may have been a "wouldn't it be nice if..." conversation! And if that doesn't exist, well, wouldn't it be nice? :-D
Regarding audio EDLs, that's what we do as a backup, and what I fall back to every time now that AAFs are always failing. Though we don't yet have EdiLoad.
Can you (or anyone here) vouch for the efficacy of EdiLoad in this pipeline? We start with R3D footage (converted to ProRes422) -> video edited in Premiere -> AAF into Pro Tools, matching in Cantar field audio (48kHz/24bit)
@ Andrew Mottl , they definitely do sync in some field recorder files. Some sections are represented in the AAF as camera clips only, and some as camera clips and Cantar audio. The camera clips are usually missing real source TC (and they sometimes show scene and take info), and the Cantar files only show Scene info correctly (no take#, channel name or proper TC). Because of this, the editors have been giving me in their video edits burn-in windows showing the current camera clip and its source TC, along with an ALE file (CSV that I can use to match camera clip name to Scene and Take info). I will share a screenshot of a section of my timeline in just a second, showing the camera clips and Cantar clips (all from the Premiere AAF), with the incomplete metadata they have maintained.
Screenshot
@ Andrew Mottl , here's a screenshot. Ignore the selected clip... but the files starting with A, B or C are all camera clips, and the "VF" clips are from the Cantar. Again, all filtered through the AAF export from Premiere... so some metadata is there, some is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister ➡️
Premier doesn't retain metadata in the pass through to PT. Furthermore, it's rare that a DP enters in metadata like a location mixer does.
This is a situation where I would get audio EDL's from the picture editor, get a copy of the production rolls and use EdiLoad to construct the session.
Not sure if that is available to you, but that normal course works pretty well for us.
It can retain the metadata but there are a plethora of pitfalls.
They definitely have to start by syncing the production sound. I had one show where merged clips actually worked but it was because the editor somehow figured out how to use the audio Sc/Tk/TC metadata instead of the camera's.
Embedded AAF's don't work. I had one instance where a referenced AAF did not work but a referenced OMF did.... never figured out why.
Adobe has clearly mucked with this over the years as the bugs keep changing.
In this particular case I'd suggest EdiLoad. It's also worth looking at Kraken. It can do an assemble from EDL.
Also if you're adventurous you can get Premiere on a subscription basis. Then you can request a Premiere project with the audio tracks and flattened video track. That way you can see for yourself what is going on in the project and do your own export.
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou ➡️
I had one instance where a referenced AAF did not work but a referenced OMF did.... never figured out why.
+1 !!! That one was weird...
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpatey ➡️
@ Andrew Mottl , they definitely do sync in some field recorder files. Some sections are represented in the AAF as camera clips only, and some as camera clips and Cantar audio. The camera clips are usually missing real source TC (and they sometimes show scene and take info), and the Cantar files only show Scene info correctly (no take#, channel name or proper TC). Because of this, the editors have been giving me in their video edits burn-in windows showing the current camera clip and its source TC, along with an ALE file (CSV that I can use to match camera clip name to Scene and Take info). I will share a screenshot of a section of my timeline in just a second, showing the camera clips and Cantar clips (all from the Premiere AAF), with the incomplete metadata they have maintained.
Thanks - interesting, I don't know how Cantar files deal with metadata (if they actually do scene? under that name)... but if all clips are lacking TC, how would one have a reference?
Matching by Scene and TC would be the way for PT to know what is from the same situation, right?
Weird... was the camera TC synced with a tentacle or so? Audio TC maybe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl ➡️
Thanks - interesting, I don't know how Cantar files deal with metadata (if they actually do scene? under that name)... but if all clips are lacking TC, how would one have a reference?
Matching by Scene and TC would be the way for PT to know what is from the same situation, right?
Weird... was the camera TC synced with a tentacle or so? Audio TC maybe?
Yes, that seems to be the main issue (wrong TC in the clips from the AAF).
The Cantar files that I import directly do have valid Scene, Take, Channel Name and TC, and Pro Tools displays it. It's just the clips from the AAF that have broken Scene, Take and Channel Name info, or unrelated TC.
The original camera clips and Cantar audio are beautifully synced, and that's evident in the editors' timelines... it just falls apart in the AAF export.
Lives for gear
What Premiere version are they on? Anything recent?
It doesn't do the OP much good now, but for a production where you knew that it will be necessary to do the Field Recorder workflow syncing up the production sound to picture and having the picture dept work with and export from that is the way to go. The lack of metadata in the audio tracks from the camera seems like it might be an unsolvable problem, or one that will require are really tedious workaround. I have lost this argument re: syncing prod sound with editors many times, and have paid the price for their laziness in much extra work on my end post-export. If you think this situation is bad re: Premiere, try it on FCX+X2Pro! If it was me I'd be writing to the AAT folks right away, and sending samples for them to look at.
I use OMF when stuff like this happens. It's a little clunky workflow wise, but seems to work every time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjpatey ➡️
Yes, that seems to be the main issue (wrong TC in the clips from the AAF).
The Cantar files that I import directly do have valid Scene, Take, Channel Name and TC, and Pro Tools displays it. It's just the clips from the AAF that have broken Scene, Take and Channel Name info, or unrelated TC.
The original camera clips and Cantar audio are beautifully synced, and that's evident in the editors' timelines... it just falls apart in the AAF export.
If you think the AAF export broke metadata from the synced Cantar files, you might try the latest Ediload which can import Premiere XML. This path might preserve metadata better.
This is all great info, thanks so much everyone. It's easy to get isolated in audio post, because (at least in my case) there's only one of me doing what I do on a given project... I don't often get to compare notes with other audio post folks in person, so this community is a great resource.
We're going to first try the Premiere -> Audition -> AAF route and see if that maintains the metadata. When the editors do include hand-synced field audio, I still have the same metadata issues, so the culprit seems to be the AAF export. I'm hoping the Audition route will fix all of it. Crossing fingers.
Then we'll try the 32-bit suggestion inside of Premiere.
If neither of those work, we'll try AAT... I have an email out to them as of this morning. We have an older copy of their software that we purchased years ago to try and translate Nuendo sessions to Pro Tools... so maybe that's a "free" option.
Otherwise, I'll try EdiLoad or Kraken. Never heard of Kraken before this thread, and it looks kind of cutting-edge. Will be interesting to see what works!
Thanks again, everyone, for sharing your perspectives and experience. I'll post back here with the solution!
-Mark
Lives for gear
Mark - what aaf are they sending you? Non-Embedded? Consolidated (with handles) or full audio files?
You might want to try non-embedded with FULL audio, hopefully that doesn't mess with the headers/metadata.
Just a thought...
Good luck!!
Windows Pro Tools Feild Recorder Guide Track
Source: https://gearspace.com/board/post-production-forum/1335210-pro-tools-field-recorder-workflow.html
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